Jesus talks a lot about the Father in the Gospels, but how does he know so much? Where does he get his information? One one occasion, Jesus tells the Pharisees about his special relationship with the Father, and they are furious!
James Tissot via Wikipedia Commons
What Father?
Most of John chapter 8 is devoted to this conversation. Jesus said to the people in the temple courts, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
The Pharisees challenged him saying he had no witness to those claims but himself. Jesus answered that he also has the witness of the Father who sent him. So the Pharisees pressed him by asking, “Where is your father?”
Jesus responded, “You do not know me or my Father…If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”
Who are You?
Later, the subject came up again when Jesus claimed he was not of this world.
“Who are you?” they asked.
“Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,” Jesus replied. “I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”
They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father.
Jesus told them the Father had sent him. The discussion really heated up when the Jews insisted that Abraham was their father and Jesus replied,
“I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”
“Abraham is our father,” they answered.
“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. You are doing the works of your own father.”
“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me.”
So the Jews now claim that God is their father. Jesus winds up suggesting their real father is the devil, and they retort that Jesus is a demon-possessed Samaritan.
But what does Jesus mean when he refers to what he has seen ‘in the Father’s presence’? Did he experience the Father’s presence or was he actually WITH the Father? He also says that he heard the truth from God, that he came from God, and that God sent him. This is a lot of information!
Your God is My Father
Finally the Jews asked, “Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”
And Jesus gives even more key information about his relationship with the Father,
“My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
We learn so much from this short exchange. Jesus begins by identifying his Father with the God of the Jews, which is the God of the Old Testament. So it seems that Marcion was mistaken.
Then we hear that Jesus existed before Abraham was ever born! This is a game changer. Whatever Jesus meant by his statement, it certainly sounds like a claim of pre-existence and a relationship with the Father before his birth among the Jews. Jesus is no ordinary man!
Hearing this, Jesus’ challengers did the most natural thing and picked up stones to stone him. We learn quite a bit about Jesus and the Father from this discussion. Next time we will hear what Jesus says about approaching the Father.
Jesus Without Baggage 
Hey Tim, nicely summarized. I think the only place we may differ a little is regarding the authenticity of this event in the first place. I tend to think (and I’m admitting that its only an educated guess) that by the way this exchange between Jesus and the people / Pharisees is so nicely coordinated that it is simply a story crafted by the writer of this part of John to make claim to the Jews, in absolutely clear, redundant, and no-uncertain terms, who Jesus was in relation to the Father. It’s written so perfectly when read from that perspective. If it was written today it would almost certainly include an appendix with bullet points and flow-charts 🙂
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If the exchange was “crafted by the writer”, then we’d assume he embellished on the other details also — like the post-resurrection dialog. That’s the danger with that theory. If truth isn’t the basis of biblical writings, it’s all lies.
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It is true, Eric, that if the writer embellished here he might have embellished elsewhere. However, though this makes it more difficult to be certain of details, I don’t think the answer is to assume the writer was somehow writing without involving his own understanding of what happened and its significance.
It would be nice to have a perfect, inerrant account, but even the Bible does not suggest such a thing.
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You are correct, CE. There is certainly a question as to whether this vignette is more or less accurate or whether it is completely shaped by the agenda of the author. The other Gospel writer’s also notice Jesus’ identification with the Father, and Paul’s writings, the earliest documents in the New Testament, attest to the designation of God as the Father.
I am sure that the writer of John reports the story based on his interest, but I think that the Gospel of John represents perhaps the most solid foundation of preaching from eye-witness accounts in the New Testament. This does not completely validate this passage, but I think it more or less accurately reflects the memory of the writer rather than being a fabrication. I believe the eye-witness source found this exchange convincing.
Thanks for your excellent observation!
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Please comments related to the writers fabrication of GOD When we look to nature we see Birds Migrating in flocks we see fish living in schools we see four leg animals living happily in herds . they have no need to give praise or acknowledgement to god they move about they seek food they reproduce just as Humans do . Does the Concept of God require Humans? without Humans would GOD exist ? Do non believers (athiest) of Judao- Christian faiths function as do the other creatures on the Earth ? Do The other religions based on doing good (Buddhist) and soul concept do they not function awake seek food reproduce and sleep ? the equation tells me “The God” created by the three major religions is dependent on the Humans that made him and the Concept of God in dependent on his inventors
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Good summary. Later Jesus would say that those who have seen Him have seen the Father. To know one is to know the other, to worship one is to worship the other.
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Yes! The relationship of Jesus to the Father is so close that we can understand the character and motives of the Father through the words and actions of Jesus.
Excellent point!
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Can you Please explain this contradiction in the Bible thank you John 3:16 “For God so loved the world he Gave his ONE AND ONLY SON” “Behold what manner of Love the Father hath bestowed upon us that we should be called the Sons of God” and Gods relationship to man is based on FEAR “As a father has Compasion on his children, So the Lord has Compasionon those who FEAR HIM thank you
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There are many Christians who mistakenly made Jesus into their god, though there is only one True Divine God Creator of everything, the god of gods, the Elohim Hashem Jehovah. He does not tell lies, is an eternal spirit Who cannot be seen by man or they would die, cannot be tempted, has no birth and no end of life (cannot die). He declared the man standing in the river Jordan by his baptism, that he, Jeshua (Jesus Christ) is His only begotten son. Jesus is the sent one from God, a special messenger, prophet and master teacher (rabbi).
Jesus is God’s One and Only Son in the manner that Jeshua is the second Adam, the only one placed in such a special manner in the womb of a human being, Miriam (Mary/Maria).
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Pingback: The God of the Old Testament vs. the Father of the New Testament | Jesus Without Baggage
Howdy! I could have sworn I’ve been to this blog before
but after checking through some of the post I realized it’s new to me.
Nonetheless, I’m definitely glad I found it and
I’ll be bookmarking and checking back frequently!
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this did not answer anything for me is the god of OT the same as the NT ? if you believe in the creation story and the Mary joseph and jesus story then they would have to be the same God So the Purpose of Jesus was a PR man to give God a New Image ? that is basically what your saying so because you can not justify the acts of God in the OT you put together a new book the NT and use Jesus as a PR Man to make God look More LOVING so you get to pick and chose what parts of the OT to believe and the same as the NT very inconsistant not logical so that gives Christians the ability to write the “word of God” from what parts of the bible they want they can mix and match like a menu from a chinese resturant does not make any logic to me but to serve your own purpose but to manipulate things in the bible for spin and Hype when serious guestions are asked you get to pick and chose this passage and disregard that passage to defend your position so then you need to admit you manipulate the bible to serve your purpose not Gods its only 1 of 3 things A ) the whole Bible is truth B) Only those parts of the bible that suit your ideology is true and the rest is not or C) it all is untrue that is why people turn away from religion there is no consistancy then religious people always give you the answer “God is all powerful ” He doesn’t have to explain himself ? Why not ? Why doen’t god have to explain himself isnt that What the bible was written to explain why god did the flood why god cast adam and eve out why got sent Jesus isnt the bible someones way of explaining why we should follow him well that defeats your response of god doen’t have to explain himself thats exactly what the purpose of the bible was So I guess we need to write the New New Testiment because god left out some chapters The bibles theme is also why man suffers well my dog did not make a contract with god and did not eat from the tree of knowledge but he has pain and suffers my dog never disobeyed god he has no concept of prayer or religion but he is not free of pain that according to the bible a curse god put on man not a covernent of god to animals it is al l to illogical to me
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GB, to some extent I think you are right. Though the Old Testament gives glimpses of a loving God, it often presents God as angry, violent, and vindictive. This creates fear, of course.
Part of the good news of Jesus is his informing us that the Father loves us, so we need not be afraid. This is a real game-changer for those steeped in a fearful, Old Testament understanding of God, so it is not mistaken to say that part of Jesus’ purpose was to change people’s ideas about God in a PR way.
You said, you manipulate the bible to serve your purpose not Gods. What do you assume my purpose to be?
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“My Father, whom you claim as your God”
Do you think this supports the idea that the God described in the Old Testament is not the same God described in the New Testament? Jesus is essentially saying that you think you know God, but you really don’t; that everything you thought you knew is wrong. Or that you gave credit to my Father, but it wasn’t Him working for you. If Jesus is sayinghat they don’t know God/Father, how can we trust that they accurately described the God of the OT?
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Jesus was a protester jesus was anti establishment Jesus was not here to die on the cross for Our sins Jesus was here to say rebel the Priest and Rabbi and goverment have distorted mans rlationship with God their writings and treatment of religion had become as we would say today and still applies today a “Corporation ” for profit that the message he teaches is a connection with your inner self and your private self and your individual understanding of God not one in a book or a temple or a statue but your concious your connection with your fellow man your insight into your actions with your fellow man some call him the son of god some call him a man some call him god its not what you call him or if you believe if he died for you he was a man like people today that says as loud as he can it does not matter what you believe it matters what you do how you treat one another the world can exist without God in this world as an establishment or corporation because the world is made of people we are the factor that determines the human race we can continue to fight religious wars civil wars world wars discriminate torture and abuse or we can look inside ourselves ( the place a concept of right and wrong and “god” really exsist) and evaluate and examine what we are doing to each other you can connect with your conversation with “GOD” by yourself no temple or church or house of worship needed organized religion is not require for “GOD” your concept of god is in you he travels with you in your heart and mind and needs no definition or buildings the concept of god is in each human it is in himself to look inside and find it for themselves that is what Jesus was screaming not in a book god is in your actions
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Michael, in reviewing this thread I realize that I did not respond to your question. This was an oversight and I apologize. You question is a good one and so are the two tentative answers you suggest.
After many years of considering this, I think perhaps the OT writers were doing the best they could, with limited insight, to understand God; but I also think they misunderstood him in significant ways. I don’t think the Father was the war god of Israel. I don’t think he was demanding and violent. These are ways that most ancients thought about gods.
Essentially, all I understand about God is what Jesus tells us of the Father. I no longer look to the OT for information about God.
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you say you do not look to the OT for GOD well then how did Jesus come to be ? How can you have one without the other ? then you are saying Jesus was Just a Man and the bible writers Made him a God but he was not ? That is My confusion I have with “Christians ” You Look at the Bible and pick and chose what parts you want to follow and what parts you reject so you don’t follow the 10 commandments ? The basis of sins and the purpose of Jesus’s being and then you pray to him because he died for your sins But without the OT there would be no concept of sin ? and Jesus would have nad no purpose to die to establish christianity but rather you are saying basically He died as a part of a political revolt What I have been saying all along that he was a Man with a message about non violent revolt against the Oppressive Rulers and High Priest of the time and his (Jesus) belief in “GOD” was a concept of the alternative parent/ father ( a higher being who looks over him) as he promotes non violent revolt Are you saying then saying the God of the OT is not the God of Jesus if you reject the OT thats what you are saying you reject that god but accept Jesus who supposedly was here to die for you because that was the plan of God Logic ? please explain how you can accept one and not the other ?
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GB, you said: “That is My confusion I have with “Christians” ” Does this mean you are not a follower of Jesus? I really cannot determine your frame of reference, so I have to guess what you mean much of the time.
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I still have questions about the logic of christianity the concept of sin I see christianity as a illogical combination of politics ( Ruler Law ie sin laws ) and the Purpose and belief in God why the need the comination of the 2 together I would like to understand the Logic
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A few more statements Jesus was sending a message that the future of mankind was in our hands by are actions to make the world a better place basically he was preaching buddhist principles to look in ourselves if he wanted you to hold a book up to justify our actions he would have written one and if you notice he didn’t write one but said spread the word the power to change the world and end war and injustice is in each of us we can do it by love and kindness to one another but as in his time as today we distort his message by a bible or another text written by men for power and control by others
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GB, I am not sure whether you are addressing Michael B. or me, so I will respond. Michael can respond as well if he wishes.
I agree with you that part of Jesus’ good news message is that we should follow love and reconciliation with our fellow humans, and that we should care for each other. Unfortunately, people indeed distort Jesus’ message, and it is often for power and control. But is also distorted by those who believe their distortions; in this case both the teachers and the hearers are damaged.
I have high admiration for the words of the Buddha, and some of what he says is very similar to Jesus’ teaching, though his focus is different.
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how is his focus different ? Lets take the events taking place during Jesus’s time …. We have the evolvement of monotheism prior to that the people worshipped many gods we know from history that in egypt one of the pharohs had started worshipping only the sun god we know the concept of god was changing we also know the sun god – one god didn’t go over too well because the priest had lost power (control) and revolted same as for jesus if the belief in Jesus’s took hold that took followers away from the rabbi and high priest of the time Jesus was a threat to power now you also have the roman empire dominating the area if your a high priest or rabbi benefitting (power money control ) over the people You will side with the roman empire who allows you to keep power over religion then and you have this Guy revolting and he that doesn’t ask you for money or food to support the “movement who are the people more likely to follow someone who asks nothing of you in payment and promises you freedom from oppression or the rabbi and roman goverment who are taking things from you in taxes live stock and labor so no the God of the OT and the concept of Jesus’s are not totally the same just as we are having this conversation so is it how religion and beliefs {and you can say the same for goverments } evolve The pharohs of egypt had the concept they were Gods the , rulers of the roman empire had the concept they were gods , even in the present day when the queen of england takes the throne the concept is she is ordained by god to be the ruler of the country . religion and concepts evolve now look at jesus if I am writing a story about someone I think is starting a new concept I have to give him some extra ordinary features what was the concept of the day ? that they are ordained by “god” I truly believe some of the things and stories of the man Jesus were distorted and manipulated by the writers to fit the beliefs of the times ( religion = power = ruler = god ) I think the term “GOD” had a very different meaning then than it has today To me Jesus was a Man organising a peaceful demonstration against the established goverment and religion of the time I believe his concept was that similar to buddha of self enlightenment I am not a scholar but of what I read he spent a lot of time in thought if I am a writer and want people to hear my message I have to embellish the story other wise who will read it if I just write this guy started a revolt thats the end of story one page but if I write a story 60 years after this guy the freedom fighter who gets killed for his rebellion , the chance of many of the people around at the time to still be alive to disbute was I am saying are slim so The term “god” in Jesus’s time was different than todays concept of the man in the sky The people wanted a new “RULER ” they were tired of being repressed and taxed in jesus’s time in order to be ruler you also had to be GOD the problem is the writers of the “Bible” took a revolt for freedom and self rule and turned it into a religion
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GB, much of the way of thinking among the Jews of Jesus’ time is well documented. You are right that there was tremendous resentment against the powers and oppression of Rome. Josephus gives us considerable detail about that era and I Maccabees provides the background.
The people did want a new ruler, and many potential rulers rose up and gathered many followers until they were destroyed by the Romans. Some wanted Jesus to be that ruler, but he refused. What Jesus had in mind was not political–it had to do with love and reconciliation among people–but the Romans, along with the Jewish religious establishment, killed him anyway.
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Lets talk about the concept of the OT that adam and eve ate the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge …… as a result “Man has FREE WILL” what do you take that to mean ? To me that is not a religious statement that is a Political statement . in anient times religion was a form of government an example the Ten (actually more than 10 ) Commandments of God (also known as RULER = GOD ) these are the LAWS you must live by what is the one thing man rebels against through out all recorded history ? ( RULER = GOD) To me the OT and NT are about a struggle of man and a specific group of people ( to self rule to form a ” government ” (Religion) that they have a say in . In America we have evolved a system that tries to seperate “government from religion ” because the concept of your “ruler = god ” was no longer supported by the founding fathers we try to maintain our “free Will” by allowing the people to have a say in what laws we need to live by . to me the bibles are a distored glorified account of a peoples struggle for freedom and self rule if I have a new concept about freedom do i want to be a slave to the next government that takes over my country No but the OT talks of slaves as a common thing so Jesus needs to reject the OT and the Jewish laws they don’t allow for free will and self rule the OT tells Jesus who he has to pray to that is not Free Will you can look at the times of Jesus as a starting of a new religion or as a man’s quest for free Will and self rule take away the Religious motives in what the writers claim he may have said and look at it from a “political” view Jesus was promoting NON Violent rebellion he was against all the opression of the jewish Religion and the roman empire and the power struggle of the times
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Lets talk about what is going on in the world today . Take the Taliban what are they promoting ? POWER = RULER = GOD why is that objected to by many people and counties ? Free WILL what is man’s common response to events “Who gives you the right to tell me what to do or how to live my life ? the people who want to be in control reply is “GOD” it all goes back to people trying to tell someone why you have to do something “because GOD said so its here in this Bible or Quran or what ever text you want , someone wrote it down 3000 years ago and it is true and fact and you should not question it for if you do you are questioning GOD well maybe i wouldn’t question God if you didn’t keep trying to tell me that POWER= RULER = God people need and want to believe in a “higher Being” for comfort and to help them cope with difficult time But man also wants to have a say in how they live their lives and laws and justice and equality and a voice in self rule as in America the conflict continues the religious Right lobbies to have laws written to reflect the “MORAL CODE OF THE BIBLE” once again “Look here its written in the bible GOD said so ” to pass civil laws governing the people once again an attempt at Power= ruler = god concept Why do we have “god” on our money ? Pledge to the flag on our monuments ? why do we have people trying to get prayer in school why do we have groups wanting America be called a “Christian Nation ” because some political leader is still trying to push that 3000 year old concept that POWER = RULER = GOD and mankind will continue to resist over and over again and say you can be my ruler but you can’t be both my Ruler and MY GOD they are not the same
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one more fact to throw out there Because Mankind no longer believe that MEN are GODS Men who wish to be RULERS changed the concept that they are GODS but rather they are now Enpowered by GOD to rule (QUEEN OF ENGLAND CONCEPT ) well in america that didn’t work so people who want power to be RULERS Now USE GOD as a tool to say My rules (the Bible/ Quran/ other religious text) Are the Law of God if you are against these Books you are Against GOD People are not against the concept of some people having a belief in god to me and many people if you find comfort in the concept fine if it brings you peace and happiness fine Mankind objects to the efforts of someone telling me I have to believe the same as you Free will Should I not have the ability to decide my own belief about a possible “higher being” or the right to reject it and to believe I am responsible for how I treat my fellow man not because how god told me to but because I reflected upon my actions evaluated them and decided that maybe how I treated someone was not the way I myself would have wanted to be treated We dont need God to be able to decide that how someone is treating you is beneficial or not to your personal well being or physical existance It would be wonderful if someone took the accounts of the bible and wote it in the concept of a history of a man and group of peoples struggle against opression and got Back to the real message of the man Jesus MEN are NOT GODS there is no horrible being in the sky destroying the world with fire and floods and wars that the ” concept of god ” is within us all it is called the human Emotions and action that are called kindness love compassion empathy remorse happiness sadness giving to others who have less than us supporting one another in our daily lives “do on to others as you would have them do unto you ” these are the words that Jesus the Man was saying you know how you want to be treated and so that is how you should treat your fellow man
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I certainly do not support the religious right or the Taliban. I am not in favor of enforcing prayer, Bible reading, or the 10 commandments in government areas such as schools and courthouses. America is not, and has never been, a Christian nation–nor should it be.
Though you provide a number of objections, I am uncertain about your overall point of view. Are you a Libertarian or an atheists perhaps? Or is your perspective something else?
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GB, I agree with you that the OT nation of Israel was a theocracy (God ruled), and the Jewish people at the time of Jesus wanted to gain back the theocracy that was taken away by the Assyrians, Babylonians, Greeks, and then the Romans.
I also agree that Jesus was promoting a non-violent freedom, but it was not political in nature. It was freedom from fear and from exploitation on one person by another. His message was one of love, good-will, and reconciliation.
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you missed my point the writers of the Bible Made it Political when they Gave Jesus a Man / God Image in order to have Followers they had to give Jesus God like status For Jesus to be a Leader the Concept of the time was Rulers and Leaders had the right to be so because they were either Gods or Enpowered By GOD Jesus”s teaching of how to treat your fellow man was simple and good and can stand alone as Honorable But what the Writers of the Bible did was PR work to change him from a Man preaching Good will toward your fellow man To a GOD or leader Endowed by God What do you think the Motive was ? did that not distort the Message ? and Jesus refering to his father that goes to My concept of Jesus’s concept of his God as the Alternative Parent who watches over him Man is the only creature that has the Concept of God Jesus Had his Concept of God that doesn’t make him a God
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please explain How can you have freedom from FEAR ? Fear is defined as an unpleasent EMOTION caused by a belief that someone or something is dangerous and likely to cause pain or a threat Man kind can never be Free of Fear its a human emotion and survival response to mans surroundings and a means of deciding what is right and wrong Do not the writings of the bible especially the old OT use Fear of Gods wrath to control Mankind if mankind was to be Free of Fear that would mean Free of God’s power and laws over you to be free of Fear would mean you would lack the emotion to obey God and or Devine Beings that have powers greater than you Freedom of fear would be like saying God does not exsist and neither did Jesus (Died for Our sins Concept ) Sin is defined as an immoral act considered to be a transgression against a devine law . (God ‘s Law ) so Freedom from fear is impossible What does God say if you don’t follow his law he says here is a flood and what else does god say the rest of the people I have created don’t count I pick just a certain group of people to be the chosen ones or his people Now we have a conflict here one Message from God saying I have a chosen people and a writing in a bible story of a Man/God dying for OUR sins Who are “OUR” the chosen people ? All People ? Christian’s all Mankind Who is OUR ? So if Jesus died for the chosen people then why do we have christianity ? then we have to talk about the Messiah concept Messiah defined as a Saviour or LIBERATOR (now that word sounds political ) of a group of people Now what did the Jews want Liberation from ? Political RULE So then another group so called followers of Jesus that say he was Our Messiah if that is true what did he Liberate you from ? Liberator is Someone who sets people free from cativity ( sounds political to me ) then you have Saviour a person who saves someone or something from danger goes back to the definition of FEAR so was Jesus saving us from Danger , What danger ? the Danger of GOD “s Wrath or the Danger of the Rulers of the time It all still sounds very Political and all about Power to me
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GB, I do not live in fear of God. Why should I? He loves us.
I still can’t determine whether you are saying we should be afraid of God and keep his rules, or whether you are rejecting this way of thinking. What is the simple, specific point you are trying to make?
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the OT sets the stage of telling you should be fearful of GOD floods fire from the sky and so on the Ten commandments sets up the concept of sin The NT sets up the purpose of t Jesus to die for “OUR” sins and sets up his purpose by order of GOD If I write the OT I am now obligated to find a character in time and history to Fill the Massiah story I hear about this Man who was doing this revolt WoW 60 years have passed no one else has shown up I’ll pick this guy Jesus he fits part of the bill I have to make it fit so I make him a Man/ God the Jews dont buy the story so how do I get the people to believe me I tell stories and embellish them Wow Jesus was a man during a period of unrest He got a folloing of peaceful revolt and got killed end of story Tell me you say God loves you . How does your god show you love ? and don’t tell me because his “son died for you ” you didnt exsist then tell me how you know today he loves you ?
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GB, you said: “in order to have Followers they had to give Jesus God like status.”
I am still not clear. Do you think the Old Testament picture of God is invalid? Do you think the writers of the New Testament are mistaken? Do you think Jesus was mistaken?
If so, mistaken about what? (fewer words please)
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LOL ok fewer words I am in a time of roman occupation of Israel the people are poor the tax payers are in the temple the jewish people want self rule My friend John has been beheaded I am trying to promote peaceful revolt the High priest are in bed with the Roman powers of the day religion is now corrupt the people are both unhappy with the Rulers and the head of religion What do I have to do to get my revolt going ? I have to give the people religion and a new head or director for a new form of rule goes back to Religion = power = Ruler/God the concept of the day that Ceasear was a God and the ruler Mark 12 12 -17 jesus’s answer render to Caesar the things that are due Caesear and and to God the things that are God’s Wake up your ruler is your ruler your god is your God they are not the same
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I think the people who wrote the bible wrote it to be the Political and social and religious rulers over the people of the time if you remove the 1st commandment you have socail / civil law when you add the 1st commandment now you make the law of the land the voice of god one of the major religions that do that Buddhist dont Hindu ‘s don’t why the start of that concept ? total rule how does man ever have any say or free will in that model ? he is stuck if he disagrees he is against the law of the land and rejects God at the same time and you haven’t answered any of my questions if you reject the OT how can you believe in Jesus ?
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Can we discuss the concept of “GOD” as the alternative Parent when a child is born what does he Know welll from a early age he knows that in the world there is usually one or more human beings to care for him he gets “love” or scolded for his actions as he grows up its a learning process if you stick your hand in the fire you will get burned and so on . Take the “God” concept is he not the Alternative parent figure ? If you don’t follow what I say you will Burn in hell forever or if you don’t follow what I say you have committed a sin you must repent and the love response of God is to forgive you just as a mother would say but dont do it again or there will be a punishment Is not God a alternative Parent a concept of the parent who no longer follows you around physically telling you what to do and how to do it ? But a belief system of a higher being looking down at you from heaven and guiding you through life and as a Parent who will either punish you or reward you for your actions .I think its called a conscious discipline Jesus was also promoting Conscious discipline
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GB, I think your Freudian idea of God as a father figure (alternative parent) is somewhat true. Jesus himself describes God as the Father who loves us. However, I think much of what people attribute to God as a parent is invalid–such as punishment and anger.
Perhaps you have not read other posts from my blog, but I don’t believe anyone will burn in hell https://jesuswithoutbaggage.wordpress.com/key-baggage-issues/hell/.
Furthermore, while many people think God is a monitor and enforcer of keeping his ‘rules’, I disagree with that view. I don’t think the Father is interested in rules but more that we should treat others with good intention instead of hurting them. https://jesuswithoutbaggage.wordpress.com/key-baggage-issues/legalism-and-behavior/
I hope these responses are helpful. ~Tim
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Then why did Moses present the rules that he claims came from god and tell Moses he should present them to the people and proclaimed this is the word of God and not obeying them is a sin against god ? and why do religions and people of religion try to enforce them in the “Name of GOD ” If Gods is not interested in enforcing the Rules than why write them ? Why write them so specifically why not say Hey People Just Love one another Why say You shall have no other God before Me ? thats not about how to treat your fellow Human being that about How you Treat God goes back to SIn sin is a result of not following the rules of God Does God Hurt Mankind by his actions ? thats a good example treat your fellow man this way but I can destroy the world and sentence my own Son to death and what Sin of mankind or the Chosen people , What sin specifically did jesus die for ( the first Commandment ? ) and as a result of his death How did mankind change I see no Logic here ? who is God taking to Mankind or just the People Moses seeks to rule over to force them to believe in his version of God So the Purpose of The OT and NT Promotes His one God Concept to a specific Group of people Mean while the rest of mankind are believing in many Gods or the Sun or who ever So the Purpose of this God who speaks only to Moses and a select group of people Has wrtten a Law That He (Who ever he is ) is only the Valid God So its not about How to Treat your fellow man Its How you Treat Me and how you follow my rules If your Concept of God is He is only about how we treat one another then we would not have to give up all the other Gods ? Do not the other Gods define how we treat one another do they not provide us with a understanding of the world around us ? I see a lot Of EGO driven concepts here the Books of the bible was to promote a one God concept But a Multi God concept was functioning well for the rest of mankind Why change things ? Motive ? for the purpose of getting a specific group of people to revolt against the Pharoahs All goes back to Religion = power= Ruler + God Concept
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GB, I am still unsure what your perspective is. Can you state in a short paragraph what position you are defending?
If you are saying that God is a god of rules and laws, then I cannot agree. We do need to love each other, but it IS important to love God, because as we respond to his love we are better able to love others. The two go together.
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why do you say they go together ? i do not love a god in buddhism we have no god but i can love my husband and sisters and brothers and show love to my fellow man I need not know the love of God to have the emotion of love the emotion of empathy or the emotion of saddness I stated i worked in brain trauma I have seen people who’s part of their brains are damaged sometimes emotions are lost and the ability of conception Ideas God is a concept
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reality i have emotions I know the emotion of love but as a Buddhist I have no God to Love but In reality I can both feel the emotion of love and show actions that show love to other people . that is reality and how do you respond do your God’s love and how does he show you Love ?
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REALITY is the world or state of things as they actually exsist as opposed to an Idealistic or notional idea of them the state of quality of having existance or substance Why is it important to Love God ? please give examples in reality how your god loves you and how he shows it and examples of his actions and how you respond to those actions ?
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EXIST defined as to have actual being objective reality of being OBJECTIVE defined as NOT influenced by PERSONAL FEELINGS or opinions in considering the representing Facts please give actual example in reality of how God loves you Please keep in mind love is defined as an emotion Love defined as an Intense feeling of deep affection How does god show emotion or feelings ? is it not true in reality only living things have the ability to express and physically display feelings ?
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To be alive / Living a living creature or organism an animal sentient (able to precieve or feel things ) breathing existing biological biotic organic Fact in order to have and display an emotion (love) one must be alive how can you respond to god;s Love (an emotion) when he is unable to display emotion
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Please comment on the following Quote “If we did a good act Merely from Love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to him, Whence arises the morality of the Athiest ? There Virtue, then must have some other foundation than the Love OF God ” thomas Jefferson June 13 1814 in reference to your statement because as we respond to God ‘s love we are better able to love others topic Science VS GOD “to assert that the EARTH revolves around the SUN is as erroneous as to claim that JESUS was not born of a VIRGIN Cardinal Bellarmine 1615 during the trial of Galileo Beliefs can change when presented with the facts The problem with the Judao-christian religions of the world is that they are like a cruel Life Insurance Policy …….you don’t know if they paid off til your Dead Gallbladder july 22 2014
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oldest form of religion / God Sharmanism Animism (concept of soul) Ancestor worship Goddess worship Shinto Polytheism Buddhism Jainism ( soul concept) Toaism (Compassion concept) then we come to Judaism the primary religion who’s concept is based on a system of laws called Halachah that regulates personal values Family relationships social responsibility and Civil and criminal JUSTICE ( sounds like reward and punishment to me ) all the other religions are concepts of souls and compassion the majority of them promotes how to be loving and compassionate its only when we get to Judaism that we have all these Laws this is were we get away from the concept that God and Man;s relationship is a personal conversation When we get in to Judaism the conversation changes
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Halachah is legalism, and I don’t think God wants us to live legalistically.
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then if God didn’t want his followers to live by his Law why did he write the commandments ? so what God do you follow and who is your Jesus ? and what was his Purpose ?
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i guess no one can contradict what I have written because you are all silent so that confirms my belief that religion is all about the religion= power = ruler = God concept
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GB, I am sorry I did not respond to you earlier, but the truth is I went into the hospital early morning on the 17th for a procedure and have been recovering since then with very little access to the computer. I only read your comments this afternoon.
However, silence does not confirm anyone’s views. And this comment almost seems hostile. I hope this is not how you meant it.
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Not hostile disturbed at what “Society” has done to “GOD” and belief systems your relationship with Your God is individual Not Political or for the purpose of discrimunation or for control or power or for Money But Some people Have taken The Concept Of God as a FOR PROFIT Institution and Political Gain they have made Religion a tool to meet their Agenda and Lost what the Purpose of God is Not much different than in the time of Jesus it is a sad thought that nothing has changed in 3000 years
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Buddhist simple principles no temple required no laws or commandments no money for Profit or selfish Motives just basic common sense principles of living in the the world take only what you need for exixtance give to those in need self evaluate your own motives and actions and strive to be the best human being I can No God to pray to so I have no need to feel my beliefs are superior to others I need not discrimnate against people base on race country or religion sex I can look at other peoples religions and evaluate them from a material prospective and motives I have no desire for riches or rituals or proffessing one human is superior to another or One God is a True God and all others are not I am 61 years old I was raised Catholic tried the Jewish concept and Hindu concept growing up I lived in a multi religious and ethnic community I was a practicing RN in brain trauma for 35 years I found that it was most beneficial to my patients not to tell them I held a specific religion but to be neutral because many times part of caring for people I found their belief system was beneficial to their recovery so If I needed to read for them from the Quran or the bible or Meditate with them without prejudice that is what I did in those situstions the Head injuried patients never reflected or had an attitude their religion was superior or the only True religion I helped them have that “Individual Conversation ” with God at their time of need and isn’t that what “God” is for Comfort and hope ? God isn’t about a Pew or a prayer rug a big church or a temple its not how many followers you have or sins you have committed or who did what or who wrote what God isn’t about “THEM” the other religion or them the other country its trying to live in harmony with man and nature
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We are about the same age. I think it is good that you are comfortable with other religions; so am I.
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Hi GB,
I really appreciate the clarification of your point of view. I think I understand your questions and objections much better now. I will try to address your new questions in this single response, so that it will not be so fragmented. Of course, you are welcome to interact further.
You shared that you are a Buddhist, which helps me place some of your earlier comments in perspective. My guess is that you are Theravada, since you say you don’t believe in a god to love. Many Pure Land Mahayana Buddhists tend to respect and adore Amitabha almost like a god or saint.
I have high respect for Buddhism. I think Gautama was an incredibly wise and balanced thinker, and I have benefited greatly from his insights summed up in the middle way, the four noble truths, and the eight-fold path. I consider him to be perhaps the most helpful teacher who ever lived.
However, I do believe in Jesus, and I follow him. I believe Jesus brought us good news, and part of this good news is that God is not angry, violent, and vindictive as he is often described in the Old Testament. Instead, he is like a Father who loves us unconditionally; in fact I usually do not refer to him/her as God, because the term ‘God’ carries such negative baggage. Instead, I refer to him/her as the Father, as Jesus did, though it could just as easily be ‘the Mother’; I do not think of God as a patriarchal entity.
Another part of the good news is Jesus’ rejection of rules and laws as the basis for ethical living. Instead, he emphasizes the importance of treating other people with their good in view rather than hurting and exploiting them. Jesus expressed this in many ways; some of the more well known are:
Jesus replied: ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ (Matthew 22)
Do to others what you would have them do to you. (Matthew 7)
You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies. (Matthew 5)
Jesus was consistent in teaching and living this principle, and it was specifically in contrast to the idea of living by rules and commandments, which was accepted as the ethical standard in Jesus’ day. However, Jesus is not unique in teaching this ethic; the Buddha taught the same thing, and it is constantly emphasized today by the Dali Lama who represents the Vajrayana branch of Buddhism.
There is a third aspect to the good news of Jesus that is more unique to Jesus. I believe he tells us that there will also be potential for life after death, and I think his resurrection demonstrates his ability to effect our restoration to life after we have died. I anticipate that it will be a life of peace and happiness, unlike our current experience of conflict and oppression.
Many Christians see this pleasant future life as restricted to those who believe certain things about Jesus and who make specific commitments to him; they think those who do not do this will be punished. I believe they are terribly mistaken. Jesus’ invitation to eternal life is open to everyone who accepts it, even if they have never heard of Jesus; perhaps everyone will be accurately informed of the invitation after death.
Now that I have addressed, broadly, some of your general questions, I will see if I can address other specific questions.
I still have questions about the logic of christianity the concept of sin I see christianity as a illogical combination of politics ( Ruler Law ie sin laws ) and the Purpose and belief in God why the need the combination of the 2 together.
I certainly understand this question! Many Christians today talk about sin in terms of rules and laws; in fact, I used to understand Christianity the same way. But I have learned that this is misguided.
I don’t use the word ‘sin’ much because of the baggage attached to the word, but it is used in the New Testament. I believe we can define sin as hurting ourselves or other people; it is as simple as that. Of course, we can never completely avoid hurting people, but we should try conscientiously to avoid it. This is what I understand the message of Jesus to be, and I think the Buddha gives us this same message.
I am in a time of roman occupation of Israel the people are poor the tax payers are in the temple the jewish people want self rule My friend John has been beheaded I am trying to promote peaceful revolt the High priest are in bed with the Roman powers of the day religion is now corrupt the people are both unhappy with the Rulers and the head of religion What do I have to do to get my revolt going?
I agree with you that Jesus was leading a non-violent revolt, but I don’t think it was against the Romans but rather against the legalism and haughtiness of the Jewish religious establishment that despised and burdened the common people. I think Jesus succeeded in establishing an alternate movement, but it has now lost much of the original impetus and has often become similar to the dogmatic, legalistic religious establishment of Jesus’ day.
If you reject the OT how can you believe in Jesus?
This is a good question, and you are not the first to ask it. But I don’t reject the Old Testament; I reject the way some Christians understand the Old Testament (OT). Many Christians think the OT is an accurate collection of the very words of God, but they aren’t. The OT writers were very interested in God and felt they had a special relationship with God, but their comprehension of God was very limited. In my opinion, Jesus’ insight about God overrides anything that is written in the OT. However, it is a very useful record of how the nation of Israel thought about God; and by-the-way their thoughts about God are not consistent throughout the OT.
You say God loves you. How does your god show you love and don’t tell me because his “son died for you.”
I believe God loves us because Jesus, as his representative, both taught and demonstrated love.
Many Christians today think Jesus died to pay for our sins, but this is a idea that developed only about a thousand years after the death of Jesus; I do not hold to this theory. Other Christians see Jesus’ death and resurrection as a victory over death itself, and it impacts us in that we have opportunity to live again beyond death. Of course, the immediate reason for Jesus’ death is that he was seen as a threat by both the Romans and the Jewish establishment.
I do not love a god in buddhism we have no god but i can love my husband and sisters and brothers and show love to my fellow man I need not know the love of God to have the emotion of love the emotion of empathy or the emotion of sadness.
I think the comfort of learning that the Father loves us is important to many people because previously people thought that God was angry, vindictive, and out to punish them. So understanding that God, instead, has good will toward us removes a great burden of fear. I understand that this is not the case in Buddhist thinking.
In order to have and display an emotion (love) one must be alive how can you respond to god’s Love (an emotion) when he is unable to display emotion.
I don’t claim to know much detail about the Father’s makeup, but I suspect that the Father does display emotion and can relate to us.
REALITY is the world or state of things as they actually exist as opposed to an Idealistic or notional idea of them.
It is true that we do not have a detailed understanding of things we cannot see. I believe in God and I believe in a future life after death, and those things are not demonstrable. However, these are not the things most important to my life. The most important thing is Jesus’ teaching of love for one another, reconciliation with others, and treating people with respect and good will instead of oppression or exploitation.
I think the same is true regarding the Buddhist belief in the cyclical re-birth of the atman. Have you ever seen the atman? What about the concept of kamma? Are either of these real as opposed to idealistic or notional ideas?
GB. I hope these responses have been helpful in clarifying my perspective. Feel free to follow up if you wish. ~Tim
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Have you ever died ? I died at age 32 bleed out lost 5 pints of blood no heart beat no breathing ( clinical definition of death ) An I remember this very clearly The last thing I remember was seeing nothing but darkness my mind said to myself Wow what is this they said there was supposed to be more to death than darkness A light but no tunnel no God From that point on my logical reasoning was why have I been beating myself up kneeling down stand up say this pray give money support the church They lied at the time I was a practicing Catholic as humans we do what is called Personification children do it playing imaginary friend or talking to their dolls ( that is why children are so easily influenced into religion and the concept of God they do it sometimes up to 10 years old ) it is defined as attributions of personal nature or Human characteristics to something non human or the representation of abstract quality in human form RE: Show me how god has emotion You are not able to your response is you suspect ( belief with out proof yoou guess ) he has an ability How has God shown his emotion to you today ? you cant In reference to Karma it is an action seen as bringing upon oneself inevitable results good or bad in life as to say I am responsible for my actions responsible for what happens as a result of them they are independent of others its called choice control of my destiny also know as Free will Please answer my other questions why do christians Pick and chose things to believe and are they really practicing their faith ? The reason I ask because I am living in the BIBLE BELT ( SC) about 90 % christians of all forms and 90% republicans also of all kinds and I don’t understand how they can be called “Christians” ttheir actions are not reflective of the words written that jesus was supposed to have said A large percent are very racist selfish I see this homeless man frequently i buy him lunch or a coat he pushes his bike they made him get off the bench the other day at the library he was just resting I ususlly talk to him a few minutes he say everyone else look down at him people harrass him not very christian behavior to me thank you
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We are often disappointed to discover that what we have been taught is wrong. Fortunately, this becomes an opportunity for growth.
I think I did respond about God and emotion by saying that I suspect God has emotion. I really don’t have anything further to say about it.
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How long did it take GOD to tell his first lie ? 7 days Genesis chapter 2 2:17 and God said But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat FOR THAT DAY that you eat of it you shall DIE . So God Lies from the start . So why should Mankind believe anything he says he couldn’t keep his own word within 7 days of creating man So why should mankind believe he will keep his word about eternal life and mankind has to go through all these hoops to get to heaven and mankind does this and GOD can stand there and say HAHA I lied it was all for fun There is no heaven or hell or eternal life it was all a game you lost HAHA Boy those are some emotions sound like a game to me GOD lies from the start
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GB, I don’t believe the story of Adam in the Garden is historical; it is only a story–something that never happened. So it does not represent the words and actions of anyone, no more than Huckleberry Finn represents the actions and words of anyone.
Whatever the storyteller thought about God has no bearing on me.
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Ok the words of the OT does not represent the words or discription in your view of God so How do I find a discription of the essence of GOD so Can we say he is a spirit ? but a spirit is a non physical part of a person that is the seat of emotions and character a further definition is Spirit is the Animating force within Human beings the SOUL of Human beings So is it a correct concept that GOD is MY soul ? If that is a correct concept by definition the god is in me then that confirms that man created God By definition spirit is a human Characteristic that part which gives man Character and emotion so it is then My emotion and Character that is the true essence of God
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GB, I do not claim to know details about God. All I know is that Jesus describes the Father as someone who loves us and seeks peace among us. I have no speculations about the Father’s attributes.
To me, the animating force within life is breathing. If a life form is not breathing or otherwise being sustained by its environment, it is dead. I would not agree that God is my soul.
I asked you earlier to communicate with me by email rather than in comments sections. Please do that if you have other questions of observations.
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Then the answer is Delusion for it is defined as an Idiosyncratic belief or impression That which is Firmly maintained despite being Contradicted by what is Generally accepted as Reality ( that which occupies time and space or the state of things as they actually exist ( giving something emotion or ability to speak when they lack the physical ability to display an emotion such as imaginary characters and the dead ) an Idealistic or notional Idea of them … REAL LIFE Actuality the state or quality of having Existence or substance Rather than as one that is Imagined Your belief that a God exist is defined as a Delusion if you go further and believe Jesus is god that still remains a delusion thank you for your time
_____
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Terri (GB), please contact me only by email as I requested. ~Tim
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Sir, I would rather prefer to emphasis more on OUR relationship with our Fathers, both human and Heavenly.
As Jesus showed us how we can hand over everything to HIM, as GTF, is our Creator
Will any Father, ever give us snake when we ask for fish?
But EVERY TIME, He is FORCED to give us,though HE can foresee our demand as a future problem and presently NOT required for us, as it will create problem for us in long run,
But still HE is made to give, as we pray continuously to make happen,
WE need to have it and now itself! that’s our prayer when we don’t get a reply we brand Him that, “He is deaf, not listening to my prayers!
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The Pharisees were all about being ‘the’ experts on God. In fact, they were bloated with knowledge. Jesus focused on relationship. The Christian faith isn’t about what you know, correct theology. It’s about Who you know and the quality of your relationship with God. My theology will never be perfect because I have no hope of obtaining a perfect understanding of God and how He works in the world. However, Jesus is perfect and in His person I find everything I need to become the woman God intends for me to be. Knowledge is good but love is far superior.:0)
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Pam, I love your statement that the Pharisees were bloated with knowledge while Jesus focused on relationships. That is an excellent way of describing the situation! And I agree that will never have a perfect understanding of God, but in Jesus I find everything I need as well.
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Good morning Tim, I wasn’t raised as a fundamentalist. In my family of origin, alcohol was God and it was my chaotic, painful childhood that made the rules and structure of legalistic, fundamentalism attractive to me. My acceptance of some faulty teaching had more to do with my wounded psychology than with anything anyone was trying to force on me. However, God used that negative experience in my life, as a positive. I am closer to God because of it. My spiritual walk began with only Jesus. I became confused about denominational differences and about the difference between religion and faith. I longed for family and structure. I passed through fundamentalism and now I’m back to Jesus and me. I don’t regret any of it because God has been faithful in working it to my good.
I haven’t read your entire blog but in some of what I read, I think what you experienced was more what I call religious or spiritual abuse? That is different from being deceived by some bad teaching.
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For me as well, it was understanding more about Jesus that finally pulled my spiritual life together, and that involved discarding a lot of religious baggage I had been taught. However, I don’t think I was subject so much to religious or spiritual abuse as I was to terribly misguided religious beliefs.
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I’m glad for that. Religion can be an insidious vehicle for abuse. Controllers love religion and the power it gives them over others. There are many antichrists in the world…have a great day and a wonderful weekend, Tim.
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And Jesus father is not that monster of the Isrealites name YHWH or Yahweh. Remember just because they claim the Father to be their god doesn’t mean he isn’t( not by action he isn’t). If the bloodthristy god is Jesus father then I feel sorry for him.
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biblianazar/esp_biblianazar_jehovah.htm
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Melanie, I am sorry for the delay in responding to your comments. I have been tremendously occupied by a situation that has taken much of my time. But I am hoping to respond to all of them today.
I agree that the way God is depicted in much of the OT is completely inconsistent with what we learn of the Father from Jesus. I see that you have already read it, but my all-time most popular post addresses this issue: https://jesuswithoutbaggage.wordpress.com/2013/08/13/the-god-of-the-old-testament-vs-the-father-of-the-new-testament/
However, I think an even more pertinent post is https://jesuswithoutbaggage.wordpress.com/2013/02/01/the-old-testament-writers-and-god/
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Here’s a better link.
http://www.evolutionofgod.net/question_israelite
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Thanks for the better link, Melanie. It is true that the idea of God developed considerably over the history of the Israelite people. The concept of God after the return from Babylon is certainly not that which appears in the earlier writings.
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