The angry, violent, vindictive God of the Old Testament often seems completely at odds with the loving Father of the New Testament. It is difficult to reconcile the two and sometimes believers, along with non-believers and ex-believers, question the actions of God recorded in the Old Testament because they seem atrocious and outside the character of a good God.
Tony Grist via Wikipedia Commons
Defenders of God often respond in one of two ways. Some try to explain how the seemingly cruel actions of God in the Old Testament are proper given the circumstances: God killed people because they were evil, as he did in the flood; and he killed Israelites in order to enforce obedience, and so forth.
Others simply point out that God is not accountable to anyone and has the right and power to do as he pleases—he is above reproach. Neither answer seems satisfactory; the acts still seem incompatible with a good God. I believe both answers are misguided.
Marcion’s Answer
One early bishop took this objection very seriously and concluded that the God of the Old Testament was not the same person as the Father of the New Testament.
Bishop Marcion was the son of the Bishop of Sinope, a seaport city in northern Asia Minor. Recognizing the conflict between the concepts of God in the Old and New Testaments, Marcion taught that the Father whom Jesus describes is the universal God of love and compassion, while the God of the Old Testament was a lesser being and the jealous tribal god of the Israelites. Marcion had many followers.
Marcion addressed a real issue, but I believe his answer was mistaken. I believe the answer lies elsewhere and here it is: God did not do what the Old Testament claims he did.
Who Wrote the Old Testament Biography of God?
The problem with the Christian defenders of God’s violent behavior in the Old Testament, and with Marcion’s conclusion that this God was a completely different being than the Father, is that they both believe that the things written about the God of the Old Testament were accurate.
But who wrote about God in the Old Testament? Was it God writing his own story, or was it people writing about God as they understood him? I think it was the latter. The Old Testament is a collection of material written by many people, in many situations, over a long period of time. What they had in common was that they felt a connection to God or with the nation Israel.
Perhaps God provided special insight to some writers in some way, but we don’t know to what extent, and it seems that they had a very incomplete understanding of God. The Old Testament idea of God certainly reflects many of the same assumptions about gods held by the surrounding cultures of that day—assumptions we should no longer maintain.
The writers of the Old Testament were bound by the times and cultures in which they lived, and their ideas of an angry, violent, vindictive God were products of their limitations. It is an incredible burden on them to expect that they were perfect in everything they wrote.
It is important to realize in this regard that violent images of God are not the only ones found in the Old Testament. There are many references to a gentle God. When Jesus announces his mission, he does so by reading from Isaiah 61. Luke 4 reports his words:
The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.
However, the angry, violent images are there; they grab our attention and we must account for them.
Inerrancy of the Bible
Inerrancy is the belief that every word of the Bible is inspired of God and is accurate and authoritative. Accepting and defending the Old Testament descriptions of God’s behavior as fact is necessary for those who hold to inerrancy. A reader commented recently, “I am continually challenged when confronted with the thought that it isn’t ALL INSPIRED by God. If it isn’t, then what is the point of the Bible? Why bother believing any of it.”
This concern is sometimes called ‘cherry-picking’ the Bible. But were we to read a compilation of works on medicine from writers over a period of 2000 years, we would certainly use the best of the works and ignore the rest. We would not throw out the entire collection because of the varying quality.
Neither must we accept the Bible as inerrant in all things in order to accept the good news of Jesus.
Jesus and the Father
What does Jesus say about the Father? How did he get his information? How does it relate to Old Testament descriptions of God?
Over the next few posts, we will discuss some of the things Jesus tells us of the Father.
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Joe, I would appreciate if you could answer Sir and LET US ALL KNOW THE TRUTH?
We are very well convinced that God is God, we know this very well but have read the Ten commandments with all our heart and all our mind, for everyone’s benefit, ” “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the house of bondage.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments”
Hope this ONE commandment is very clear to us all, as we are like old commandment people, creating silent God’s, who will be hung on the wall!
Has the suffering subsided after we changed god, infact we have found more agony and new methods for suffering also, but not only we are the suffers, we have ensured that OUR CHILDREN, also suffer!
Does this remind us about the first commandment,
“5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me”
But, As you know Jesus was made god by Constantino in 325 AD, by voting? From then onwards, discussions like this started off,
Now, as you know Jesus better, kindly let all know the missing years of Jesus, from the age of 13 to 29?
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There is substantial circumstantial evidence that Jesus likely spent much of the missing years being training as a rabbi in the school of Hillel (grandfather of Gamaliel, whom Paul studied under) or a group affiliated with that school. An excellent discussion of this can be found on the website http://www.fishingtheabyss.com. See the eight-part series “Jesus as Rabbi” contained therein. Several of the most famous teachings of Jesus appear to be variations of the teachings of Hillel, such as the Golden Rule and “For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, but to lose his soul.” Evidence is also found in Jesus speaking about his “yoke” (being easy), i.e., the existence of a “yoke”, and that he chose his disciples rather than that they chose him. While Hillel chose his disciples, the more common practice was for a youth to ask a rabbi if he may become a disciple, then the rabbi would either agree or not. The teachings of Jesus were all in accord (and generally extensions of) the teachings of Hillel, except for divorce. In the case of divorce, Jesus followed the position of the school of Shammai.
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Thank you, for giving me one more perspective on Jesus MISSING YEARS!
As I was getting more involved with his connection to the lost tribes OF ISRAEL who had settled in India, eastern countries, one of the link- http://www.stephen-knapp.com/visiting_the_grave_of_jesus_in_srinagar.htm
Are you telling us, that he was human, not even a prophet as God was speaking through Prophets, Moses was a stammer, David was Shepherd!
Are you saying that, HE GOT HIS KNOWLEDGE, fine tuned! that EITHER FROM Hillel OR from Buddha teaching, BUT WHY SHOULD HE? AS HE WAS SON OF GOD! WHY DOES HE REQUIRE, THIS HUMAN KNOWLEDGE? As he was supposed to be ALPHA AND OMEGA?
But, none of the other prophets, John the baptist of his timeline or any other prophets never attended schools? WHY???
We all are very clear now…
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The traditional Christian belief is that Jesus of Nazareth was fully human and fully divine. A large number of those Christians believe that during the 33 years, Jesus of Nazareth was a physical, fully human realization/representation of God on earth. To be fully human, it is generally accepted that, except for the divine knowledge that the Father may have granted to him at some times, Jesus needed to acquire knowledge in the standard process–gradually learning through experiences during his human lifetime. (For me, this implies that the miracles associated with Jesus of Nazareth were generated by the Father, at the request of Jesus. For instance, it would have need to be God the Father who (i) generated a sufficient anti-gravitational field to keep the physical body of Jesus levitated on the water, in order for Jesus to “walk on water”; (ii) altered the physical chemistry of water to create wine, given sufficient water contamination by carbon and traces of other elements and molecules (or otherwise perhaps generating nuclear reactions turning oxygen into carbon etc, while eliminating resulting radiation) and then breaking and rebuilding chemical bonds, and (iii) raised Lazarus’ dead body back to life and then physically regenerated the decaying body, etc. While it is extremely difficult for all human minds to contemplate a human/divine duality (or simultaneity) of Jesus, and therefor many often reject the concept, nevertheless, those, such as me, who believe in Jesus’ dual nature must nevertheless accept the likelihood of knowledge growth constraints and limitations of Jesus’ human mind.
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Perfect Gcleaver, Your explanations very clearly once again proves that all miracles were done by GTF, and Jesus was only a tool, like any other Prophet who performed miracles? Where is the divinity of Jesus is seen except that GTF, used him.
We are all HIS sons and daughters, but our faith is less than size of a MUSTARD SEED!
Does GTF require a representation on earth? As He can do anything and everything whenever, HE wants? If so, from past 2015 years who is taking care of us?
(Jesus would have had all the worlds knowledge if he was divine, the second person as all Christians believe, but as a human, even to talk to people with good Bible knowledge, He had to be well aware of what He is talking as it was human who was speaking? But What about the real Prophets?, who were telling the naked truth to the kings, not common man, that too without any fear! How?
Can we agree that there is only one God, and in 325AD, Emperor Constantino made Jesus as one of the God, to save his kingdom!
GTF IS REAL AND THE ONLY GOD!, He cannot be seen through our naked EYES! Or…
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As always, I love your perspective Tim. I really think Marcion was a cool guy. He instantly caught the difference between the OT God and the Father of Jesus. How different Christianity would be today if his ideas had prevailed!
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Zach, I agree that Marcion was right to be disturbed about what the Old Testament writers said about God’s cruel acts, but I believe his assumption that what those authors wrote were accurate descriptions of the God of the Old Testament.
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OT God’s CRUEL ACTS and accurate descriptions? What are they? which has stopped, after we elected our NEW GOD? or…please enlighten me.
As I know, WE are dying a pathetic death it can be America or in India, only difference is in TYPE OF DEATH, but we are dying… same as people of OT, what is the difference?
The difference I see is, it is NEWER version with new thought process, But WE DIE, and the body getting rotten within 3days, Same Suffering, same agony, same crying, same, same, same. What has changed after OUR new God has assumed the office and TAKEN IN-CHARGE?
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What I do know about the men who wrote the old testament is they believed that God sat above good and evil, as He worked them both to ultimate good. This view is expressed in either first or second Kings.( I can look it up.:0)I promise I’m not making it up.) This is still a common Jewish concept. This same idea is reflected in the NT as in “God is faithful to work all things together for the good of those who are called according to His purpose in Christ”. The teachings of Jesus and the NT writers internalized God, while in the OT, He operates externally. In the OT, God gave man His Law, religion, and government, which aren’t enough to control the destructive behavior of human beings. I believe that by faith in Jesus, the Holy Spirit indwells us, giving us a new nature that is spiritual. As a believer, I experience inner battles with my natural behavior vs. the desires of my new, spiritual nature that isn’t unlike the conflicts described in an external context in the OT. I see no split in the nature of God and have no trouble in reconciling the older scriptures with the newer ones. I see the OT as a foreshadowing of what is fulfilled in Christ.
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Interesting thoughts, Pam; thanks for sharing them. I think they have a lot of merit, but I do think that much of the problem of angry, violent Old Testament God is that these passages were written by people who understood God in this way–but were mistaken.
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If I understand your perspective rightly, it is the conflict of every human, who either tries to, SATISFY your SENSES or satisfy your conscience, which GOD has given from the time of Creation.
There is NO NEW and OLDER SCRIPTURES, As Jesus himself said in, Matthew 5:17 “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled”.
For these, atleast I agree completely with Jesus! ONLY THE GIVEN EXAMPLES were RELEVANT to that ERA!
But, We are still suffering, and not SAVED as proclaimed.
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Wouldn’t Jesus have set the record straight if in the OT God was not accurately portrayed, or not even really God at all? It seems to me Jesus held the OT scriptures to be truth.
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Epic, there are many things that I wish Jesus had made more clear. But I think he was following his own agenda and not mine. However, though he never stated that the OT picture of God was inadequate, he did portray God in a much different way than the OT did. For me, this is very, very significant.
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I love the thought that the OT God is misrepresented by it’s authors. But the NT God of love , forgivness and compasion, has never stopped human pain and suffering, it just continues. It’s been two thousand years since Jesus paid the price. The explaination of the reward of eternal life that Jesus provided for believers is supposed to give us so much joy. But the hard truthfull reality remains, the unbelievable suffering that He allows, watches, and does nothing. I’m still searching for this God of love, as a caring Father.
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Diane, you have touched on what many consider the most important question of all: Why does God allow suffering?
I don’t have an answer to this; I don’t think anyone does. But I wonder what we expect from God. What is he supposed to do? Most of our suffering comes from two main sources–nature and other people.
Should God control the forces of nature so that no one is affected by tornados, hurricanes, lightning, and floods? Should he magically provide food for the hungry or stop car accidents? Should he counteract the effects of evolution that produce aging, defects, and disease?
Should God prevent people from harming each other by taking away their freedom of will? Should he micromanage relationships so that no one hurts another? Should he take sides in conflicts to protect one group from another?
The question you ask is a serious one, but my question is: What is it we expect God to do?
What God has done is to send his son with the good news that God loves us and wants us to be reconciled to him and to each other. God wants to bring peace and happiness to our personal lives right here on earth. The promise of eternal life is a big bonus, but it is not the main element of the good news.
I certainly don’t belittle your important question, but I am interested in your thoughts on what God should do, or the thoughts of anyone reading this comment. I am serious. Can you share them? Can anyone share your thoughts on this?
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I remember being so angry that my Jesus follower Dad suffered for years before he died in April. Yet my dad was so peaceful & trusting right to his last breath. I can’t explain any of it. All I know is that Jesus held his hand through all of it.
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Appreciate your comments. You mention, “God wants to bring peace and happiness to our personal lives here on earth.” (I wish I could believe that, I really do. I feel like Mulder on X Files…..I WANT TO BELIEVE.) How is that possible with, miscarriages, infant death syndrome, cancer killing even children not just the elderly, deformaties, Downs Syndrom, Dementia etc? I so often wonder why our Christian prayers for healing of other Christians doesn’t work. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if sick Christians were prayed over with faith, anointed with oil and got up and walked right out of the hospital being healed like James mentions? Also wondering why God lets the havoc of nature exist at all, when Jesus could calm a storm instantly? I’m also wondering why God does not provide food for His children that are in need. Jesus said to pray for our daily bread. Christians in 3rd world countries are praying that every day, instead they and their children die. It was announced in church a few years ago that a pastor in Africa, know indirectly by our pastor, committed suicide because the members of his congregation were dieing off due to lack of water and starvation. Why doesn’t water just spring up out of the earth or a rock? Why doesn’t He bless their crops and animals to multiply? This pastor believed God would provide as Jesus said. It didnt happen. God sent bread and meat from heaven to the Isrealites, where are these miracles today? I just dont understand. You asked,” What is it we expect Him to do ?” Wouldn’t it be fantstic if he did some of the things he used to do in both Testaments? I just dont understand why he is so silent now. He did it then, why not now? Sincerely
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Diane, suffering is an awful experience. Life is not perfect, and things go terribly wrong all the time. You might have experienced unusual suffering yourself, perhaps even a great loss, and I would never want to discount that pain.
It would be great–fantastic!–if these things were not so. People throughout history, including the Old Testament, have considered such scenarios in which there was no suffering or conflict.
The Garden of Eden is a beautiful example of an imaginative story of a place without suffering. Yet that story ends with perfection spoiled by man’s free will. This is a story reflective of the human condition everywhere and in every age. God does not force humans to make good choices or to support positive relationships over their own selfishness.
But you focus more on suffering from natural causes such as illness and defects, especially in children. You also wonder why God does not heal sick Christians who receive prayer (just curious but why just Christians?) and why he does not control nature as Jesus did and provide food for all Christians everywhere as he did for the Israelites in the wilderness.
I wonder these things too. I think all of us do. It would, indeed, be fantastic if God made our lives perfect and free of suffering. But that would require God to micromanage the Universe instead of allowing it to function according to natural physics.
Jesus did heal people, and he did provide food for them. But these were isolated incidents; he did not do this for everyone. It had to do with his personal presence among them and the bringing of the kingdom of God on earth.
It would be great if we lived in a perfect world like Eden with everything handed to us, but we would be dependent and unable to mature as individuals. I yearn for a world without suffering, but I cannot blame God for not making my wish into reality.
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Keep movin’ those goalposts!
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God is NOT silent, why do you think people are suffering? As Human we expect, case to case punishment, No. God cannot punish us immediately as others, Good people will be affected.
Remember what Jesus told us in, Matthew 13:29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them.
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Please explain babies who are born with cancer.
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Radio, I don’t think God causes babies to be born with cancer, neither does God cause any other tragedy.
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I’m sorry. That question was directed at consultgtf
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Okay, got it!
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Could you please explain your opinion of the meaning, kingdom of God on earth?
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Hi Diane, you are not the only one who would like to hear an explanation of God’s kingdom on earth. This is an aspect of Jesus’ teaching that has often been either skipped over and ignored or terribly misunderstood. Two things God’s kingdom on earth is not are 1) the same as the church or 2) some glorious millennial kingdom at the end of time.
Jesus actually talks a lot about God’s kingdom on earth: it is the continual expanding of God’s will on earth through the activity of individuals in the community of believers. John the Baptist announced the coming kingdom, and Jesus inaugurated it in his teaching and deeds. It is an important part of the good news of Jesus as I point out in ‘What is the Good News of Jesus anyway?’ https://jesuswithoutbaggage.wordpress.com/2015/05/04/what-is-the-good-news-of-jesus-anyway/.
At the bottom of the post you will notice links that lead to each of the articles in the series, including the one on the kingdom of God: https://jesuswithoutbaggage.wordpress.com/2015/07/27/we-are-agents-for-expanding-gods-kingdom-on-earth/. I think this article will help answer your question on what I mean by the kingdom of God on earth.
Sometime after the first of the year I plan to do a series on God’s kingdom on earth to explore more thoroughly what Jesus says about it.
I hope this is helpful.
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I dont know how i got to this page but i feel lucky i did.
I believe in Jesus as God incarnated as human to come to free us from Satan, after all, He said: “Before Abraham, I AM!
I believe God`s Kingdom on earth will be the same as it was before the fall of adan and eve.
I would gladly appreciate your comment on this. Thanks.
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Hi Elias, I am glad you found the page and I hope you continue to enjoy it.
If you mean you think that God and Jesus are the same person, I don’t think I can go along with that. Jesus and the Father are separate persons. Feel free to elaborate on your statement, and I will be happy to respond again.
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John 14:28, where Jesus says “the Father is greater than I.
Will god to speak of someone being greater than himself? Yet, if God is a Trinity, a Trinitarian Being, then “Did he sacrifice himself to Himself or God the Father?” Jesus never freed us from Satan! we are all still serving many Satan’s and running away from real God.
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I really would like to hear what you have to say about God’s kindom on earth.
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Sorry, I was quite busy over the last two days. ~Tim
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Hmm… seems a bit too dualistic. There are many theologies about God in the many books of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). God is also depicted as a loving mother and even as a womb in the Old Testament. The description of God in the Book of Revelation seems rather similar to certain “angry violent” theologies in *parts* of the Old Testament.
Roger Wolsey, author, “Kissing Fish: christianity for people who don’t like christianitiy”
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Roger, I agree that there are many voices in both the old and new testaments, and each voice speaks out of its time, culture, and limited understanding. There are many very positive depictions of God in the OT, but for many readers they are completely overshadowed by the graphic violence that grabs their attention.
There are also readers who understand Revelation to provide information about God, when in fact this book of the apocalyptic genre has another objective altogether. The also see violence in many passages where Jesus speaks of Gehenna and destruction and think that his words are threats or even describe an eternal hell of punishment and torment.
However, the words and actions of Jesus in the gospels, written from the memories of his earliest followers, seem to be quite consistent in portraying the characters of Jesus and the Father. These are my foundation for evaluating all other biblical writings; they are our clearest understanding of what God is like.
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Tim, the book of Revelation seems to be largely a collection of ‘prophesies’ from the OT, perhaps with an overlaying of some Greek ideas of Hades/underworld. Perhaps it should have been excluded from the canon at the Council of Nicaea.
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Chas, I think you are right that the Old Testament pulls a lot of themes from the Old Testament, including prophetic ones. I also pulls from apocalyptic themes that were popular among the Jews at that time, as well as influences from elsewhere. It has a mishmash of sources.
Revelation has much to offer if understood, but I think its major influence is to engender speculation of the end-times, which was not its intent.
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God of old testament? Are we qualified, to talk about HIM?
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great post. I remember when it dawned on me that maybe if George Bush said God told him to go to war, that others in the past might have had the similar thoughts.
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It is probably true to state that anybody who claims that God has told them to commit an act that involves violence is lying.
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Agreed. Purposefully lying, grossly deceived by their own misguided perspective, or eager to invoke God to attract a following–which would be using God’s name in vain if they actually claim or imply God’s blessing on their rhetoric.
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Lana, I agree. ‘Christians’ have been going to war in the name of God for many centuries with the firm belief that they were led by him. Merging with the Roman empire had a lot to do with this thinking in my opinion. Now we have an entire group of Republican candidate’s ready to do battle with God’s blessing.
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Have recently been reading a history of former Roman Europe, and also specifically the history of England, in the ‘Dark Ages’, that is, between ca. 500 and 1000 AD. The theme that is uppermost is the role of the Roman church and its willingness to go to war, or to justify war in the search for power. I find it staggering to learn how the message of non-violence of the NT could have been so much ignored.
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Agreed. This is not the subtle way of the kingdom. The kingdom of God does not spread by force.
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Are we on same topic or different?
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Had an atheist tell me; “yes god is real,…y’all made him n your image” As I think back on the 50 years I spent in Church…I see his point. But what he refuse to see, is that the CREATOR and FATHER is real and is not what has been shoved down his throat. Father is Love.
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You are right, Mark. I believe God is real even though so much of what we say about him is made up in our heads and then taught to other people. Good point!
As with you, what I DO know about God is that he is like a loving father.
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You believe that the father is a god who we have to live in fear and walk on eggshell all of the time.
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Melanie, I don’t believe that.
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Dear, Why would you be afraid of Policeman unless you have not followed the rules which others have no problem in following…You have to fear, For you are SINNER, not His SON? for doing Our Fathers WILL is our command, ACTUALLY, We born for that. Those who followed His commandment are living till this day, not physically though! but ALL others have perished, without a CLUE!
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FYI to readers, I do not share Consult’s perspective at all.
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Mark, yes, the god of the OT is made in the likeness of man, because it is made by man, since they assumed that God would behave like a man. That atheist was wise, but failed to see the loving God of the NT, who is more like a woman than a man – gentle, kind and loving.
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IS God, YAHWEH made by Made by man? So, you have so much of knowledge? Wow! Save us, then. It was Romans who created Jesus, to please their Kingdom.Not about the story but giving him the status as, God’s Son. Then who are we? Decide and let me know your decision.
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Yahweh was once the sons of EL Elyon. Yes they’re two different gods before they got put togther in one. Also just because they claimed Jesus Father to be their God doesn’t make that the Father is the blood thristy god of the Isrealites., nor that it means he alone claim to be their god. I already
had been trick into believing that YHWH the dick head god was our father not falling for that again. Matter of fact maybe YHWH never did all those things maybe the Isrealites use him as an scapegoat. And just because they claim the Father to be their god doesn’t mean that he is. Jesus only said that they claimed his father to be their god, not him or his Father. They probably by claim action someone else to their god follow.
http://biomystic.org/el_vs__yahweh.htm
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http://contradictionsinthebible.com/are-yahweh-and-el-the-same-god/
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Thanks for the articles.
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Just don’t believe, whatever you hear. He is your Creator, Hope you are aware that things can change in your life in nano seconds!
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Well put! Thank you for this wonderful explanation.
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Good Morning Dear All,
Hope you all are aware of whom you are talking about? It’s your Creator! You are alive today by His grace, Just because he is merciful Father doesn’t mean He will always remain same, Do you know why some in everyone of us is suffering? If you know the answer, let us know…
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And thank you, Jon, for the comment!
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